Redistribution, graduated tax system is an American tenet too, not just a socialist idea

Nobody starts a class equal either, the analogy, though certainly not perfect, is not insulting. Some students are smarter, or better settled in their lives, or had a better preparation in previous courses. The analogy reflects reality in this respect. If a student does poorly in a class, it doesn’t make sense to for the teacher to simple reward them with a free grade increase. In the real world, nobody says that all poor people are lazy, but why start rewarding failure? If you subsidies something you get more of it, not less. Poverty is a bad thing, so encouraging with subsidies is an ill conceived solution to reducing it. It may well be true that such a tax scheme is “American,” but that does not mean it isn’t also socialist. To argue otherwise is to take the silly position that American can be socialist.

Subsidising poverty? You claim providing tax cuts to working class families will be incentive to be lazy, but why is there currently a 6% employment rate? Are those 9.5 million people just lazy? Clearly, they are just waiting for Obama to get elected and receive their handout.

To consider workers who are at or below poverty level failures…there’s got to be a reality check. The society is not designed to reward hard work with higher pay.

Though it’s more closely to 80% (not 95%) of Americans, Obama’s plan includes only those who are paying payroll tax, the ones who are working. To imply those who are working but are at or below poverty level are failure, that’s a stretch.

Just wait until you are out in the real world utilizing the degree you worked so hard to get. Then talk to me about who is lazy and who is not. I have seen many people who have worked under me scam the system so that they can get money for doing nothing. It’s very disheartening to know that my parents worked hard to give me an education and at the end of the day I could make more money working part time and collecting from the government. Sad but very true.

Wait, you can make more money working part-time and collecting from the government than you can utilizing your college degree? You must’ve picked a useless major. Sure, there are people that scam the system, but there are also people out there working several jobs not looking for a handout, who haven’t seen the minimum wage increased in over a decade. Not everyone wants to scam the system, we’re Americans and we value hard work. The problem is that trickle-down economics rewards the very wealthiest among us while they continue to get richer on the backs of the hardworking middle class. Greed is rampant and the rich keep getting richer. We need a President who wants to grow the economy from the bottom up.

Alum 06, even seeing a small handful of people work the system is disheartening. I doubt Alumni was implying a large number of people do it but it happens to a larger extent than you may think. As you yourself mention greed is rampant and you don’t have to be on Wall Street to be greedy. Spend a few more years out there and maybe you’ll see what I’m getting at.

Working- Who exactly do you believe to be greedy? The welfare recipient who is milking the system? What system are you talking about? At some point, you have to work at least part time in order to be eligible for welfare benefits, despite what you may read on the board here that implies otherwise. If you don’t have a job, you aren’t going to get money from Obama’s proposed tax cuts and you aren’t going to get welfare.

I’m sorry but if you work as a what I like to call a “Career waiter” you can make crazy money. I’m the 8 years I have worked in this industry I have seen hundreds of people scam the system. I have seen people take home hundreds of dollars in cash tips a night. This is money that never gets factored into their annual wage so all government assistance is based off the fact that they are only making x amount of dollars when in reality they are making way more then that. If you think that this isn’t rampant in this country you are truly stupid. You must have picked a major where you get to sit in a little office all day and never have to work with anyone that doesn’t have a college degree. You may not agree with what I’m saying but I have worked in 3 major cities in the past 9 years and have helped out in other cities and have seen the same thing over and over again.

How do you know these people aren’t declaring the tips on their income tax returns or at the very least a portion of the tips?

I in fact did get a degree that allows me to sit in an office most days, but I do work with people who do not have a college degree. I’m not sure how that is relevant.
Maybe I’m wrong, but your anecdotal evidence is hardly proof that I am.

How do I know they aren’t declaring their tips? Because I’m not a idealistic fool like you are. The forms are posted and easily accesible to all tipped employees yet I’ve never seen anyone take one. Plus as their manager I have to sign off on their unemployment claims so I see what annual income they are claiming. I also know what’s going on in my department and see the tips that they are given by guests. I take it you’ve never worked in the service industry and never will. You can act holier then thou will you sit in your little office and in your perfect world where everyone works hard for what they have and don’t ask for anything for free. Wait a few more years or until you get laid off from your cushy job and we’ll see what your attitude is like then. You may not think my evidence means anything but I’ve seen it in black and white time and time again.

Couldn’t you report them if you were so concerned?

And way to bash idealism… why dream big and reach for the stars? That’s unAmerican! All this fairy tale nonsense is driving me crazy. What if someone told you men could fly to the moon?! Would you be dumb enough to believe them?!

I certainly am not acting holier than thou. You are the one calling me stupid and a fool and assuming a variety of things about me. You certainly have not shown that people don’t work hard as it safe to assume that your staff must work hard.
If you believe that you can make more money being lazy and cheating hte system to get undeserved food stamps or whatever additional governmental benefits you believe your employees are so undeservedly getting, I suggest you take your own advice. Be sure to write in a letter to the editor.

I also never said your evidence doesn’t mean anything, simply that

I also wanted to point out that failing to declare tips would come back to bite unemployed servers in the ass, as they would receive less in unemployment. Incidentally, the tax payers would then save money.

At some point, you have to work at least part time in order to be eligible for welfare benefits, despite what you may read on the board here that implies otherwise.

Correct Jason, but what motivates them to move beyond that? I’m all for helping someone down on their luck, but if They’re not trying to improve their station or are just simply applying for welfare because they can but don’t really need it. That pisses me off. Why should I work my ass off to subsidize their irresponsible choices?

I in fact did get a degree that allows me to sit in an office most days, but I do work with people who do not have a college degree. I’m not sure how that is relevant.

God you’re dense Jason! Alumni is suggesting you live in a bubble, which I must say is not a bad assessment. Everything isn’t as warm, fuzzy and idealistic as you think it! Alumni is absolutely correct that there is a lot of abuse that happens in sectors such as the service industry. If you can’t see that then you aren’t paying enough attention.

And way to bash idealism… why dream big and reach for the stars?

Joe please visit the real world. It will deflate your idealism like nothing else. Reality has that effect.

I also wanted to point out that failing to declare tips would come back to bite unemployed servers in the ass, as they would receive less in unemployment. Incidentally, the tax payers would then save money.

It can Tim, but you’re assuming the people keeping tabs on things are infallible. They aren’t. Things can slip through cracks and individuals monitoring this type of behavior can be just as crooked as those perpetrating it.

Work-
For whatever it’s worth, I have worked in several restaurant and I’ve been in the real world for several years. You know nothing about me, but assume my idealism is based on naivete.
The bottom line is this discussion is nothing but speculation and an opinion based on personal experience. How many people even depend on tips for a living? Waiters only make up a small portion of those who even work in a restaurant. Even a smaller portion of waiters make enough in tips that failing to claim them allows them to have access to governmental benefits they would otherwise not qualify for. In short, it’s a silly example.

As for your point to Tim, you seem to be insinuating some sort of conspiracy between waiters and those in the unemployment office. At least that’s the only conclusion I could come to since Alumni said he has seen what the waitstaff declares when filling out unemployoment forms.

I know people scam the system, but it’s not as if they live a better existence then someone working full time, which I thought was the initial point that was being discussed. Does it suck that they are being supported by my hard work? Yes, but it isn’t the gravy train it used to be. And the rich, while fewer in number, scam the system too and make much more money of their scams so to focus on the lazy poor is missing some of the picture.

A graduated tax system is fair and necessary for the stability of our economy. It is necessary to tax less the poorer peoples in order that they spend more money on goods proportional to their wage. Spending money on goods is the catalyst for job production. With the more wealthy, the marginal propensity to spend money on goods proportional to income drops. Income earned and not spent tightens the economic gears. Also, a graduated tax system is a political stabilizer. There has to be a societal structure- a poor, middle class, and the wealthy. The wealthy generally have an interest in maintaining that wealth (as they should. And in that interest and with that wealth they participate more directly in shaping government policy to maintain and grow their wealth. When that happens, the rich get ever richer, the middle class dwindles, and a greater portion of the population lives under the poverty level. Generally this is bad for the economy, not to mention the country. Because no one wants to live in a country where the majority of the population has nothing to lose. Think Mexico- gangs, organized crime, and ransom kidnappings. That is my two cents.