Obama must bring real change by ending brutal policies of past

I’ll bet my tuition for this entire year that this guy has never served in the military. You are putting people into extreme situations where their lives are constantly in danger against an enemy that does not wear a uniform. You don’t know who is your friend and who is your enemy and whether the next person walking up to you is going to thank you or blow your head off. It’s easy for people to sit here and arm-chair quarter back as you sit comfortably in your dorm room not wondering you’ll make it though another day of violence.

Boy Brad, you’re mixing messages here.

First, the release of the CIA & Justice Dept. memos is exactly the type of change that obama campaigned about; that is more transparency in government. Did Obama make a mistake by releasing those memos? Could be, time will tell. But to claim that doing so is inconsistent with his message of change is blatantly incorrect.

Second, releasing the memos does nothing but strengthen our standing in the international community.

Steve,

You seem to imply by your statement “you’ll want everything done to insure that they are able to obtain valuable information” that you condone the use of torture.

If that is the case, how do you respond to the fact that nearly every study concludes that information obtained through torture is inherently unreliable? Unreliable information has more potential to harm us (wasting resources responding to false information) than help us. Not to mention the fact that such practices only further isolate our country on a global level and further incite any anti-american movement.

“leading scholars such as Noam Chomsky”

Hahahahaha. Too dumb; didn’t read.

“If that is the case, how do you respond to the fact that nearly every study concludes that information obtained through torture is inherently unreliable?”

Hmmm – would that be studies on torture that was kept hidden by the CIA and administration? Please explain to me how studies could be done on methods deliberately hidden from the public domain.

No Bob,

These would be studies of data dating back as far as WWII done by scientists, not CIA operatives. When humans are tortured, they will say whatever it takes (what the “interrogator” wants to hear) to stop the torture.

WRONG

“It has been argued by leading scholars such as Noam Chomsky that our efforts in the War on Terror ..”

Chomsky is a professor of linguistics. He has no scholarly training in political science or military science.

Get your facts right.

Actually, in most cases there are CIA observers of torture. Especially with rendition to “black sites” where we hand detanees over to other countries who do torture so technically the US remains “innocent.”

And former CIA operative Bob Baer who has been tortured himself and who has observed torture on others would agree the information is unreliable.

Another James Madison who reads a couple of books, essays and op-eds and thinks he knows it all. To equate the SERE training with torture really distorts the picture of what that training is all about. I’d suggest he do more study on it, but we all know that won’t happen.

I am also willing to bet my life that this yahoo has never served in the military. The extent of his knowledge is probably based on “Full Metal Jacket” and “Jarhead,” hardly realistic portraits of the current military. Even so, if this guy thinks that Noam Chomskey is an expert on foreign policy, it makes him an even bigger moron.

From someone in the military, having served a tour in Iraq, Bradley is the sterotypical college student that is completely out of touch with reality.

Assuming that Steve has also served in the military, it would helpful for him and haha to give us their perspective on the issue rather than ridicule the author of the letter. Explain why the SERE training methods are necessary. I have my own theories, but why bother throwing them out there if they’ll immediately be discounted because I have never served.
With respect to the information obtained by torture, nearly everyone agrees that it is unreliable and nobody can predict when the information obtained will be reliable.

The military trains many of its Soldiers and Marines to understand enemy tactics, etc. Part of that training includes adverse circumstances such as a SERE type program as well as dealing with unconventional warfare, blah, blah. Part of that training includes combat soldiers learning the strategies and tactics of an enemy and then applying those leasons in training exercises. In my time that meant learning NVA and VC tactics then mock attacking Marines units training before deployment in Viet Nam, etc. Torture is un-American and posers are the only ones who advocate its use. All explanations justifying is are BS.

A few responses:

No, I have never served in the US Military. Please do not equate my frustration with training tactics with a disregard for the danger inherent and unavoidable whilst serving the USA.

Secondly, in response to Diogenes, I suggest you look into the published works of Noam Chomsky to find that while he is a leading Professor in linguistics he nonetheless has published books dealing with American exceptionalism, most notably the book that I recently read titled “Failed States”.

Yes, I am a Madison student and while I may fit the description of your stereotypical whatever I wish that I could spend five minutes with you, and I would be hard pressed to deny that I could not also label you as one thing or another.

Perhaps I was not clear in what I meant by the memo making us less safe.

Human Rights first:
death of Abed Hamed Mowhoush, an Iraqi general who was killed using the very techniques taught in SERE

New York Times:
In 2005, The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer reported that many of the interrogation techniques used in simulations during SERE training seem to have been used on detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere.

In another article on interrogations in 2007, Ms. Mayer wrote that former SERE psychologists had “implemented a regime of techniques that one well-informed former adviser to the American intelligence community described as ‘a “Clockwork Orange” kind of approach.’”

The SERE affiliate told me that trainees often think that the interrogation portion of the program will be the most gruelling, but in fact for many trainees the worst moment is when they are made to listen to taped loops of cacophonous sounds.

Bradley-
A couple problems with your position:
1) How do you think we go about prosecuting the lawyers from the Bush administration without disclosing specific incidents of human rights violations? Wouldn’t this information have been revealed when these guys were tried for their alleged crimes?

2) It’s also possible that failing to release these documents would be seen by terrorists, and the international community as a whole, as an attempt to sweep the incidents under the rug.

To HA HA HA,

Kudos to serving in Iraq, I guess. But let’s get real for a second: how exactly did you “put your life on the line” for this particular author? I’m sure you were in danger, but I don’t really see how that danger had anything to do with a ‘stereotypical college kid’.

“ .. Secondly, in response to Diogenes, I suggest you look into the published works of Noam Chomsky to find that while he is a leading Professor in linguistics he nonetheless has published books dealing with American exceptionalism ..”

You obviously do not understand the concept of “scholarly.”

Just about any fool can get a book published. That is NOT the same as focused, intense study of a topic.

Chomsky is a politician.

“….leading scholars such as Noam Chomsky….” That’s as far a I could get when I burst into fits of hysterical laughter ….then sobs for you poor saps who must go to todays straight-jacketed, gagged colleges and university. HAAHAHAHAH BOOOOOOOO HOOOO

While there are many, and I mean many, problems in this argument, the one that sticks out most to me is the total lack of evidence provided for the assertion that the use of torture on our soldiers in training will inherently lead to the same tactics being used abroad by those same soldiers. First of all, no. Our soldiers undergo this type of training so that if they are ever captured, they will be able to handle the situation and hopefully live through it.

“how come no public official has stated on record that it has given us information that saved US lives?”

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/agent.tapes/index.html, not to mention rumsfeld calling for the release of memos detailing information gathered from harsh interrogation techniques. Simply put, you cannot argue that harsh interrogation is more or less effective than other methods.

Noam Chomsky as a credible source for this argument? This is satire right? I missed something? You would be hard pressed to find a more left wing, America denigrating mind today or at any time for that matter. Anyone who reads or studies MORE THAN one source of information to come to an opinion or conclusion would very quickly see that this is clearly an indoctrinated individual repeating the mantra.

You folks always ask to see the evidence that “torture” as you call it, has made us safer. I would ask that you produce the evidence that “torture” has made us less safe, as you folks constantly assert. I don’t remember any large terrorist attacks in the US recently, do you?