CLS meeting abruptly ends in frustration

I just wanted to post before the other two who are going to say how stupid and immature all of us are. How we need to be more “professional”.

Hahahahahhahahhaha I posted first.

Losers.

Honestly, these students have lost my respect as a fellow student. They did a long time ago but this event closed the deal.

These students might be inspired by what they read regarding historical revolutionary wins in Latin America or accounts of abuse and repression against certain ethnic group, but MSU, my University, will not lower itself to standards as these students did in that meeting. I understand that they pay tuition too, but there has not been any irrational behavior from the deans and the provost to arrive to the conclusion that they don’t care or that they just want to make their lives harder.

Dean Baba and Provost Wilcox have accepted different recommendations from the students, but these students can’t get over an irrevocable change in the leadership of an academic program, the CLS.

Furthermore, the actions of these students during the meeting and the way the finish the meeting leads me, and many of us, to think if the decision of removing Contreras and Martinez from their leadership positions don’t serve MSU but only their own personal wishes.

The fact is that after Dean Baba accepted several recommendations, like adding an advisor and others, if these students feel so bad about the program they are free to leave.

What these students don’t know is that they are affecting their academic careers by putting so much time and effort into getting what they want instead of just graduating and going to a graduate program that satisfies their needs. It looks to me that this group is overwhelmingly composed of undergrad students, and I wonder if the graduate students share the same opinion.

Also, what percent of all the students in CLS is represented by this group? If this group represents only 10 out of 200 or even 100 students, why bother giving them all this exposure?

The administration has been very professional with these students by respecting their ideas and listening to them. But, as we keep seeing, these students are focused on removing two faculty members instead of talking about improvements to their academic programs. It looks like these students lost a great opportunity in front of several deans and the highest academic official of MSU to ask for improvements to their academic programs, like services, counseling, adding a professor in a certain area, etc.

In general, these students have done it all. From violating committee rules set up by Dean Baba to disrespecting the Provost and several deans when they gave them the space to present ideas to improve CLS. We can see that the studnets have shown lack of maturity, professionalism and respect towards faculty members and even fellow students that take time out of academic leaders that have to work in other areas for the benefit of the entire population.

Some why I still think that the students, who proclaim themselves to represent CLS, will surprise us in the future.

Student-

For you to even assume your respect is of some importance to me, is completely ridiculous.

I know what I am supporting. I am supporting the right decision, the decision whose sole entity, Baba PROMISED to carry out. This is on tape, recorded tangible evidence that catches Baba in her far too continuing web of lies.

I believe that what you need ,student, is the facts and the true information that has not been provided clearly by StateNews and whomever or whatever other venue you seem to be getting information on, assuming that you’re not just easily willing to be accepting of the information StateNews is printing, for that would, again, be completely ridiculous.

Fact- Dean Baba set up an Advisory Commitee that met many hours over this summer, PROMISING to carry out the recommendations of the commitee.

Fact- The report stated that in order for the CLS Program to continue, the current director, (SC), must resign or be removed IMMEDIATELY.

Fact- Sheila Contreras’ spouse, who is also a professor at MSU, blatantly harrased a MSU student, yes a student of “your” university, in the CLS Office, to the point where he was shaken and needed to be phisically removed from the office by his wife, Sheila Contreras.

Until you come to understand our grievances, and experience the endless harrasment,condescending views, and INCOMPETENCE of the current CLS Director, or even the HISTORY OF CLS AT MSU, again, “your university”, well then maybe JUST MAYBE, you’d think before you typed.

Buenas Noches!!

No offense to CLS students, but what in the world does one do with a CLS degree after graduating? It sounds completely useless in the real world.

Larry,

there is quite a bit you can do with a CLS specialization as it used to be. With the changing demographics in the United States and with the demographics of the Western Hemisphere being as they are students with CLS credentials have found that the specialization has given them an advantage in many different fields. It is a shame that this program is now the gutted shell of what was once a vibrant and dynamic program.

Larry I agree. Of what possible consequence could learning about what a group of people on the verge of becoming the largest population block in the country? I mean its just a bunch of stupid Mexicans right? How much do we have to know about them in order for them to pick our food, sew our clothes, watch our babies…

You don’t have to understand the help, just communicate enough to get your point across. Right?

Your a wise man Larry. The way you’ve cut so insightfully past the bullshit and exposed a CLS degree for the fraudulent practice that it is.

Oh and you know – no offense taken. Right, because everyone nows that even when you say the most asinine thing as long as you start with “No Offense meant but…” then all the bases are covered right?

Your almost as ridiculous as the person who posted above (student) that quite obviously has no idea what has transpired in the last year and a half. It is so sad to see people who purport to be scholars, researcher, historians etc. try to comment and make value judgements on issues they have no context for.

It is shocking and saddening to see to read this drivel. All I can say is this. If any of you think that people standing up for what they believe in and plainly speaking their mind in a public forum is wrong. Why don’t you go live in some other country where these types of freedoms are not available.

It is goddamn un-American the way you people talk. Always criticizing freedom of speech, always promising repercussions. Holy crap – I wish you all would stop talking and remember the greatness this country was built on.

Please..stop this… let Dr. Contreras…do her JOB she is a wonderful woman. The CLS students are just unprofessional people they are just embarrassing the Latino Community..they are not even Mexicans..they do not even know what is like to be a proud Latino… they do not even care about poor people in Latin America..they are alcoholic students. They just want to have the CLS program for themselves..to corrupt, etc…they do not want a professional woman to run this program

Although I am against the attitude of the students that are protesting, I disagree with Larry’s argument.

Currently, college students around the US are focusing on getting a “practical” degree instead of a degree from a discipline that satisfies their interests. Eventually, this will cause lower quality of life, in terms of satisfaction, and probably create doubts on the abilities of the people.

It is clear that there is a lack of graduates in STEM areas and the involvement of technology and business is now in one of its most popular times in history, but students should not change their interests and passions for a mere opportunity to have a business degree, or communications, etc.

These CLS students are doing the right thing by incorporating their interests to their academic careers. Many of them will end up in graduate school and in the academic environment, and that is great.

The lack of PhD’s awarded has declined due to the focus on low investment and high return mentality in the undergraduate population. Now, with high unemployment rates, many adults are going back to graduate school in hopes of enhancing their resume but many have recognized that its not worth it to sacrifice their interest and passions for a 40 hours/week job that, even though it pays for the rent, it doesn’t satisfy that person.

I hope that “what can you do with that?” attitude changes over time because, as we can see, US universities are being taken over by international students that really believe that following their passions to the fullest will make them, not only more happy, but do better in the work place.

Also, while individuals are funding business schools that only educate superficial and highly technical students with poor understanding of world issues and how those social issues affect their businesses, that’s an indication that something is wrong.

Finally, those “what can you do with that?” attitudes belongs in community colleges or technical institutes were people go to get a job as security guard or clerk, but they don’t belong in universities. Currently, those attitudes are present at every college in the US and are getting all their energy from business, engineering and other technical fields that only rely in technical issues. In the end, as we’ve seen, they will fail since they are not able to combine social and technical aspects in the work place.

Perhaps you’re not as against them as much as you would like to believe. Since your reasoning against the “what can you do with that” attitudes while elitist at certain points in your articulation is essentially the same argument the CLS students are making.

Remember the old saying – “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” Don’t be so quick to judge – you do everyone a disservice (including yourself) when that happens. And makes opportunity for idiots like larry to write asinine comments.

Ashley –

“Not even Mexican..Alcoholic students”

Whatever. You and Larry need to edit each others posts before you send this drivel out.

Write it out in a notebook. Do something.

Contreras is in a enough trouble she doesn’t need the world to see that her supporters can’t write complete sentences. “Alcoholic students” thats a good one. Is every last one and alcoholic? Alcoholic by what standard? They have as a group been incarcerated for drinking? Sent to rehab?

Or they just refused to share their last beer with you? I mean I can see why that would make someone mad…it would make me questions…intentions.

‘“If you’re going to sit here and call all of us liars, there’s probably not much point in continuing this discussion,” Wilcox said.’

I think that sums up the difference in the two sides.

This is not a revolution in latin america. Grow up, act like adults and people will treat you as one. Act like babies and well…

For those of you who actually care about this issue please read and think about this for a minute before you automatically reply or disregard it.

The sad thing is that for anyone reading this that isn’t involved (i.e. 99.9% of MSU) it really looks like the students, not the dean are almost exclusively to blame.
That doesn’t mean thats true, I don’t know i’m not there.
However, based on the almost militant comments and tactics the more people read the more they’ll turn in favor of the administration.
If she truely is a problem then you may really want to take some time to truely and objectively evaluate your approach and really think if it is the most effective at getting what you actually want.

I hope this works. Baba has maintained she never said to anyone that the committee would look into and give recommendations about the director of CLS. All three groups that she met with have said this is a lie. Below is a link to a recording made on April 2 when CLS Grads met with Dean Baba. Hopefully the link below will download the sound file.

https://mail.msu.edu/imp/attachment.php?u=mirelese&t=1253634864&f=MSUGradMeetingwithDeanBabaApril2009Excerpt.mp3

You have to cut and paste the link into a new browser window to get the link.

Sparty, I agree with you 100%.

As for “hmmmmmm”, I think you are crazy or something. Maybe you lost your ability to analyze things or to read effectively. You should get a check up.

What I meant to say is that the academic discipline itself must be respected since its study leads to a better society and understanding of it.

On the other hand, I criticize the students for lacking discretion and respect for others. What these students want is to remove people from academic positions. They don’t have any intentions on improving their academic programs, which is something I applaud. So much concentration on behalf of these students to remove Contreras and Martinez just for the sake of it and the lack of recommendations for improving the academic program itself its what truly bothers me and what you didn’t understand.

Now, I would like to add another thing. These students need to think that academic fields are not affected by administrative leaders, holding financial and such things constant. What makes academic programs successful is the professors and students that are part of it. Administrative leaders, again holding everything constant, they just act on the basis of how the professors and students work. That is why at every University there are better program than others, because some programs have better professors and students than other and the administration just works on securing those qualities. On the other hand, when you have professors and students that lack initiative and productivity in their studies and research you don’t have nothing because the program loses momentum causing enrollment of less students, less quality and less resources for the program.

In the end, the students and professors involved in this need to understand that what they are doing is not for the good of the programs. Their actions are affecting CLS. Therefore, CLS couldn’t need any more than productive students and professor to enhance the quality and the amount of resources available to them. Specifically, when there is no research there are no grants to attract highly qualified students and professors and when nothing is going on you lose your program because, eventually, the professors will leave.

Students, realize that you are not in MTV or in any other reality tv show. This is MSU and here students and professors make academic programs through their work, administrative leaders won’t get you funds for grants, they won’t teach and they won’t give you that letter of recommendation. The difference and the changes occur in the classroom.

“If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.”
Nelson Mandela

@student

What are you reading? The actual students student want to remove administrators. Contreras, in her role as director of CLS, is nothing more than an administrator. I suppose when she performs her duties for Writing, Rhetoric and American Studies she may be considered an academic. Martinez, in his role as director of JSRI, was brought in to be a fundraiser (a task for which epic failure may be too positive a description).

The students were patient with the process. They had faith, albeit misguided, in the honesty and integrity of the process as described to them by Baba. The committee did come back with recommendations to strengthen the program but it felt that the program could not move forward with Contreras as the director.

You said, “When there is no research there are no grants to attract highly qualified students and professors and when nothing is going on you lose your program because, eventually, the professors will leave.”

What dimension of reality do you exist in?

Valdes (History), Pescador (History), Melendez (English), Michaelsen (English), Guizar (Spanish and Portuguese), Miner (RCAH), Torrez (RCAH), and Garcia (History), eight of the nine faculty teaching the CLS specialization, recently sent a letter to Baba, cc’d to Provost Wilcox and President Simon, which said in part,

“When we, the clear majority of the faculty, met with you in March, you indicated several things. First, you indicated that you were confused as to who supported Dr. Contreras and who did not, and that you wanted to create a “fact-finding task force” to get to the bottom of these matters and make a recommendation. Second, you indicated that you had the power to remove Dr. Contreras. Third, you promised us that the task force would have as one of its most important foci the concerns of the students, graduate students, and faculty regarding Dr. Contreras’ behavior. Fourth, you said twice that you would “follow the recommendation” of the task force relative to Dr. Contreras.”

They also stated, “You also well know, because of your direct participation, that three of our number—all untenured—had their careers, their academic freedom, and their rights to free speech endangered when they were told by their program heads that you had ordered these faculty to stay out of the CLS controversy.”

Regarding Martinez they have this to say, “You also have appointed Dr. Ruben O. Martinez as the new head of Policy for CLS. As you well know, Dr. Martinez has been on this campus for two years now. He was invited by CLS to attend every single meeting of the faculty. Once, in his second year, he showed up at a meeting. Once or twice, he showed up for a short time at a reception or event. Dr. Martinez does not know our students, and indeed has shown disinterest in working with them. His involvement with CLS began at the moment that the students asked for a meeting with the Director in February 2009. Suddenly, he decided that he wanted to be involved with CLS—running a continuous campaign of student defamation from his offices at JSRI.”

This statement is reflective of the integrity of Baba and Contreras, “At this hour, as you know, all eight of us have been removed from the CLS website. As you also know, you and Dr. Contreras have misled the Provost concerning this controversy. Provost Wilcox told our undergraduate students last week that he already has met with the CLS faculty concerning these matters, and that all of the CLS faculty firmly support Dr. Contreras.
This letter should be sufficient to prove otherwise.”

Sadly this last excerpt is reflective of the current state of the CLS program, “It should come as no surprise to you that CLS is, at this moment, a program without undergraduate students, with graduate students in name only, and with a brand new “faculty” that serves no existing community on campus.”

Baba and Contreras, not the undergraduate students in the CLS specialization, not the Grad Students, with the exception of one vendida, and two others who are no longer enrolled, and not the core faculty, are responsible for the situation at hand. Baba and Contreras. Sheila Contreras, Zapata is rolling in his grave. Dr Gonzalez is rolling in his grave. Lucy Parsons is rolling in her grave. Gloria Anzaldua is rolling in her grave. This type of behavior is to be expected of someone like Marietta Baba, but the sheer hypocrisy displayed by a supposed “Chican@ Activist™” like Sheila Contreras is mind boggling.

It is time for Chicana students to once again study El Plan. It spells out the pitfalls and hurdles that are placed to obstruct them by college administrations, in this case in the form of vendidos and vendidas such as Martinez, Contreras and Diana Rivera.

Student, this is not reality tv this is real life. When El Plan was written 40 years ago it made special mention of people like them and you.

This is not “40 years ago”. No one is “oppressing” you. If you dont like a program either offer suggestions to improve it (beyond simply removing staff) or go find another program.

Sigh,

hmm, did I say anything about oppression? I looked through all the comments above and did not see the words oppression or oppressing. I do not think these words mean what you think they do Vizzini…

Did you not comprehend anything that the task force has written?

The CLS program did not materialize out of thin air. It is not a gift of the university. It came about because of the struggle of students, community and faculty. The students, community and faculty who have dedicated themselves to the creation and maintenance of this program are not going anywhere.

Here is the part of El Plan I was referring to. Hopefully it is not beyond your comprehension although either way I am sure you will misrepresent it somehow.

he/she should be the Chicano’s person in the power structure instead of the administration’s Mexican-American. It is from the administrator that information can be obtained as to the actual feasibility of demands or programs to go beyond the platitudes and pleas of unreasonableness with which the administration usually answers proposals and demands. The words of the administrator should never be the deciding factor in students’ actions. The student must at all time make their own decisions. It is very human for people to establish self-interest. Therefore, students must constantly remind the Chicano administrators and faculty where their loyalty and allegiance lie. It is very easy for administrators to begin looking for promotions just as it is very natural for faculty members to seek positions of academic prominence.

Anything in that plan of yours call for acting professionally and strategically instead of irrationally and immaturely?

@sparty

you should have laid off the paint chips as a child. What part of this, “to go beyond the platitudes and pleas of unreasonableness with which the administration usually answers proposals and demands,” did you not understand?

“The words of the administrator should never be the deciding factor in students’ actions. The student must at all time make their own decisions. It is very human for people to establish self-interest.”

I consider that this issues is also your fault for creating an ambiguous statement that, in the end, doesn’t express anything differently from the general University policy.

In fact, reading the whole statement leads you to think that, in reality, this was a problem that CLS caused and that it was a matter of time before it happened. Why? Because, besides not providing specific information regarding the program in comparison with general University rules, the statement also fails to provide specific and concrete rules and procedures regarding different events and issues like the one occurring now.

The part where you somehow decided that the best approach to take with the Provost was to behave like a 3rd grader…thats about where i got lost.

consider this:
http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2009/09/provost_calls_for_individual_colleges_to_make_cuts