Ignorance prevalent in both praising, panning of Obama

Well stated, Michael.

Unfortunately, the sentiments offered by the prior letter writers merely echo a lot of the behavior exhibited by our politicians at all levels. We have very few statesmen left and far too many political hacks on both sides of the aisle. Today’s discourse, including that in Congress, is geared largely toward pr and talking points and less on substantive debate. The art of civil debate, where parties pursue a sincere engagement resulting in a better conclusion, has dissipated to near extinction.

It’s time for a more substantive discussion on the real issues and less discussion on personal attacks.

Hopefully others will be inclined to pick up your example.

Michael, I agree with your statements in this piece, except, I’m not at all convinced the following is true ‘He has brought the United States back from the brink of international isolation by opening diplomacy with longtime U.S. adversaries around
the world.’ What do have to support that statement?

So, now opinions are “undisputable facts”?

You clearly aren’t in the “business of unbiased political observation”. You’re in COLLEGE. Get over your over-inflated sense of importance as a college junior.

There were not “atrocities” at Gitmo. If you really think so, hop over to the History Department and look up some real atrocities.

And spending the first five months apologizing for all those American “atrocities” can hardly be called “diplomacy”.

That, Sir, is my opinion, and at least I’m honest enough to say it.

This is yet another self-gratifying article where the author tells everybody else how stupid they are. After all, the author is “unbiased”.

What the you talking about!? He’s merely pointing out facts that you could find on any unbiased news source. He’s not taking sides. He’s saying, here’s X and here’s Y. This is what has been accomplished, this is what has failed. How is it a slanted opinion when he offers both positives and negatives?

It’s OPINION, so of course it’s going to be “slanted” in one direction or another. The integrity is in admitting it, not presenting those opinions as “facts”.

I really don’t care which way his opinions lean, as long as they’re presented as just that – opinions. Presenting them as anything else is dishonest.

I’m asking what direction you think he’s slanted in. I see a completely unbiased report. 3 good things, 3 bad things. All facts. I still don’t see how this is an opinion piece.

I’m sorry, but I have to interject on MaximumBob’s behalf, here. “He has brought the United States back from the brink of international isolation” and “atrocities of Guantanamo Bay” are not facts. They are opinions! Their is no evidence that the U.S. was/is “on the brink of international isolation”, or that their were “atrocities” at Gitmo. Many people believe that we were/are becoming isolated from the rest of the world and the Gitmo is an atrocity, but they are not facts. It is a fact that Obama has vowed to close Gitmo, and he has changed diplomacy, but the other two portions are opinions.

Can’t we all just get along?

No, we can’t. And Barack Obama is going to “fix” the national economy just as Jennifer Granholm fixed Michigan’s.

Mike: Good luck in your job search. Maybe you should start looking in Guatamala or India or China or Mexico ‘cause that is where they all went.

It’s sad.

The problem with politics is half the people want to be someone’s fanboy busy making excuses while the other half is busy nitpicking.

The truth is, both Sarah Palin and Barack Obama blew in their respective parts of the ticket. McCain and Biden were ok, but Romney would’ve been a nice choice his warhawkness aside, though the “world is 6000yrs old” aka Huckabee camp wouldn’t stand to have a Mormon in office.

Guantanamo sucks. Global climate change needs to be researched. Tim Geithner blows. I don’t honestly care whether gays can get married or not but apparently having “your guy” and his Congress doesn’t change it one way or the other. Abortion sucks, but I’m not losing sleep over it while there are real confirmed people dying in Haiti.

Isn’t it nice to think for yourself once in a while?

Hey Mike,

You reveal yourself to be the biggest moron in this whole mess because both were opinion columns. Each were intended as advocacy and neither claimed to be unbiased.

Maybe you should learn to read a newspaper before you look for a job?

Re: Michael Lipphardt Letter

Lipphardt should know that the “Opinion” section is for opinions.

Michael Lipphardt should learn to read a newspaper before he insists that he deserves a job. Perhaps if he understood the function of the newspaper’s “opinion” section, he wouldn’t have assailed the “knowledge” and credentials of myself and Mr. Thieleman. Especially given the fact that I have worked several years in politics and public policy at state, national, and local level.

The opinion section allows the editorial staff and the readership to express viewpoints without the constraints of objectivity. The fact that this section exists in most newspapers is an acknowledgement that opinions are valuable and stand apart from traditional newspaper journalism.

Although my letter was better written and my assertions are more verifiable, Mr. Thieleman and myself gave clear and sincere assessments of our views. That is what those of us in the business of opinion advocacy call “the marketplace of ideas”. Given his status as public policy major, I would have thought that Lipphardt would have heard of it.

Writers often make the mistake that they have an intelligent and curious readership that can entertain thoughts and ideas with which they do not necessarily subscribe to fully. However, Mr. Lipphardt teaches us that some readers will persist in using orthodox cynicism and trite sarcasm as a substitute for actual intelligent thoughts. To say, essentially that “everyone is wrong and everyone is stupid” is a very safe and easy position to take. It’s a form of intellectual cowardice that no doubt helps Lipphardt appear as though he has something helpful to contribute.

We will see if it helps him get a job. If he doesn’t though, he will probably place unattributable blame on President Obama. Look for it in the opinion section of your local newspaper.

Re: Michael Lipphardt Letter

Lipphardt should know that the “Opinion” section is for opinions.

Michael Lipphardt should learn to read a newspaper before he insists that he deserves a job. Perhaps if he understood the function of the newspaper’s “opinion” section, he wouldn’t have assailed the “knowledge” and credentials of myself and Mr. Thieleman. Especially given the fact that I have worked several years in politics and public policy at state, national, and local level.

The opinion section allows the editorial staff and the readership to express viewpoints without the constraints of objectivity. The fact that this section exists in most newspapers is an acknowledgement that opinions are valuable and stand apart from traditional newspaper journalism.

Although my letter was better written and my assertions are more verifiable, Mr. Thieleman and myself gave clear and sincere assessments of our views. That is what those of us in the business of opinion advocacy call “the marketplace of ideas”. Given his status as public policy major, I would have thought that Lipphardt would have heard of it.

Writers often make the mistake that they have an intelligent and curious readership that can entertain thoughts and ideas with which they do not necessarily subscribe to fully. However, Mr. Lipphardt teaches us that some readers will persist in using orthodox cynicism and trite sarcasm as a substitute for actual intelligent thoughts. To say, essentially that “everyone is wrong and everyone is stupid” is a very safe and easy position to take. It’s a form of intellectual cowardice that no doubt helps Lipphardt appear as though he has something helpful to contribute.

We will see if it helps him get a job. If he doesn’t though, he will probably place unattributable blame on President Obama. Look for it in the opinion section of your local newspaper.

I realize that this is the opinion section, which is why my letter is in this section as well. My opinion? Both Tibergien and Thieleman have completely spun the accomplishments and failures of the Obama presidency into a one-sided affair. THAT was the point of my response.

It was never my intention to claim you didn’t know what you were talking about. In fact, several of the facts I put forward in this piece are virtually identical to what you have in your own.

The point merely was that partisan bickering and recognizing the faults without the praise, or the praise without the faults, is an uneducated way to go about the debate of whether Obama is a successful president.

Clearly, Tibergien has taken this letter personally, and I do appologize for that. I think you do know what you are talking about, but any person that has worked in state or federal government knows that one-sided opinions get us nowhere in the political sphere. I know this because I too have worked in DC and Lansing for the past 3 years.

To conclude, this is the opinion section. I have mine, you have yours. I never claim to spout non-opinion. Perhaps you all have misinterpreted what my opinion is. My OPINION is that in order to move forward we must stop this partisan back and forth, and recognize both sides have valid points.

I LIKE your style! Keep up the good work! :D

I didn’t intend to post my response on the article, I intended it as a letter.

“Tibergien and Thieleman serve as a shining example to the lack of knowledge. . .”

I know perfectly well what the “other side” thinks and feels. For the purposes of an opinion column, it doesn’t matter. The writing is intended to express a perspective. This is your biggest failing, you are calling the two of us stupid, or at least “lacking knowledge” when each of us set out with an objective of advocacy. You don’t understand newspaper genre.

“This is what we in the business of unbiased political observation call “undisputable facts.”

Most of the facts I listed are beyond dispute as well and each holds up to any challenge that you might conjure.

And by the way, you aren’t fooling anyone with YOUR objective. You loved the McCain/Palin ticket, you’re a Christian Blogger, and you self identify as a Republican. Maybe you should mention that the next time you purport to write “unbiased”

You watch, your hero Mitt Romney will totally try to cultivate the Tea Party people. However, he will probably be a victim of Anti-Mormon Conspiracy Theories, SOME of them untrue.

I understand perfectly well the newspaper genre. Again, you resort to attacks when I merely attempt to open a dialogue. My sole point in the article was to point out that it is in fact uneducated to talk about a President without mentioning both positive and negative viewpoints.

You are correct that most of your facts are beyond dispute. Excluding the claim that Obama somehow saved us from Somalian pirates. However, you assert them in a manner that totally excludes the negative side of the Obama presidency.

As for myself: I didn’t love the McCain/Palin ticket. I DID vote for it as an alternative to Obama/Biden. I am not a Christian blogger. I don’t have a blog. Yes, I am a self identified fiscal Republican. More to the point, I am a libertarian.

Mitt Romney is not my hero. I don’t know how he will cultivate the Tea Party movement when Sarah Palin is clearly their leader. I don’t think religion has any place in politics, and I couldn’t care less that Romney is a Mormon.

Clearly you are an ideologue who would rather attack and point fingers than get down to real debate about the issues. Best of luck.

DAVID TIBERGIEN goes by the name ‘McSaddle’, ‘Humpy McSaddle’, and “James McSaddle’ on the ‘net. His rage stems from his political failure in Muskegon about 5 years ago.

He is notorious for saying horrible and violent things about conservatives. His statements regarding Palin’s mentally challenged baby were beyond offensive, I don’t think any woman in her right mind would date him, knowing the way he feels towards innocent children who cannot defend themselves.

I can’t believe that I even recognize his name, this is hilarious. I lurk on a well-known MSU student forum, and seeing david do battle with those who disagree with him is quite entertaining.

Don’t feed the troll, you can’t talk sense into him. The source of his political rage is his own failed political career, and I don’t think there’s anything that can heal that wound but time!

DAVID TIBERGIEN goes by the name ‘McSaddle’, ‘Humpy McSaddle’, and “James McSaddle’ on the ‘net. His rage stems from his political failure in Muskegon about 5 years ago.

He is notorious for saying horrible and violent things about conservatives. His statements regarding Palin’s mentally challenged baby were beyond offensive, I don’t think any woman in her right mind would date him, knowing the way he feels towards innocent children who cannot defend themselves.

I can’t believe that I even recognize his name, this is hilarious. I lurk on a well-known MSU student forum, and seeing david do battle with those who disagree with him is quite entertaining.

Don’t feed the troll, you can’t talk sense into him. The source of his political rage is his own failed political career, and I don’t think there’s anything that can heal that wound but time!

Mr. Tibergien… You said…

“For the record, President Barack Obama has:”

“Stopped the Great Recession from becoming an Apocalyptic Depression.” -How many people are still unemployed or have given up?

“Saved the auto industry, which is now making green cars and turning a profit.” -Yet diesel and gasoline powered on snow trucks clear the snow off roads so your “green” battery powered box of a vehicle can move.

“Reversed the federal ban on stem cell research.” How about funding? No, that money is going to unemployment benefits.

“Invested in green energy jobs and ordered new government buildings to be zero emission.” -What a waste. Climategate

“Reformed and expanded federal student aid, saving families $9 billion.” -Agree.

“Funded American cities that struggle with gang violence to fight against it.” -Pork spending to cities in Liberal districts. Any results to this initiative? Or did cities just use the money as bonuses to their public employees?

“Ended federal prosecution of medicinal marijuana users.” -How about federal prosecution for deaths caused by DUI?

“Preserved two million acres of wilderness that were threatened by loggers, miners and polluters.” -In Alaska so we can’t drill it’s vast reserves and become more energy independent.

“Passed a stimulus bill that helped build and restore highways and railroads, which has been especially needed here in Michigan.” -They could probably fix even more roads if they didn’t advertise every project with multiple signs.

“Cut taxes for the middle class and small businesses.” -And raised taxes for the wealthy so they pump less money into the economy causing more people to lose jobs.

“Moved health care reform further along than any president.” -Thankfully it hasn’t passed. Health care needs to be reformed but not to the extent of the bill.

“Saved Americans from pirates near Somalia.” So Obama is a pirate negotiator? lol.

“Called for an end to “don’t ask, don’t tell,” a heinously bigoted policy of discrimination.” -Signed into law by William Jefferson Clinton. The policy works, though.

“Engaged the world in a more thoughtful and effective diplomacy.” -Iran has now enriched uranium to 80%. That’s getting close to produce a yield.

“Made his administration the most accessible and open in history.” – Are you a presidential historian? What about broadcasting the health care debate live on C-SPAN? How open is that?

His blind hate for conservatives, and blind love for BO, know no bounds. Don’t feel the troll.

this is as trite as Obama himself. I’m sorry that he has not accomplished what he intended to do. I’m sorry that he lost his “super majority.” He knew he was a one term president when he was elected. So be it, just be done President Carter ahem I mean President Obama